If at first you can’t succeed, lie, lie again….
I’ve received a reply to my “Open challenge” debate. The person seemingly wanted to be anonymous but I can see the e-mail address is “socialist red” so I’ll call him/her ‘SR’.
Since I argue for free speech, it’s only fair I ask you to read my article and the reply in full before I get to fisking SR.
OK, now you’ve read it, so……….
Even the heading is wrong. I am “idiot”, singular. See here.
You wager wrong. Al Queda should have their freedom to talk like anyone else under common law. Our common law prevents incitement or invitation to violence. So quotes such as this one from the late Zarqawi would be punishable by this law. (Yeh, it’s a pain when the other side actually uses evidence, huh?).
I agree. And if you paid attention, you’ll know the BNP are not fascist.
Anyone should be punished for violence. So since you claim we use violence, please go to your nearest police station and make a complaint. Oh by the way, the police function on this crazy system that actually requires evidence for claims.
Ahhh British education, you can’t beat it can you? (Yes, SR is in England).
OK let’s make a deal. You show me one shred of adducible, verifiable proof that that statement is true and I’ll accept you win the whole argument. If you can’t (because it’s not true) you accept you lied. Deal?
I refer you to the first word in your second paragraph. This “If you can’t win an argument, make stuff up” line is becoming very frequent from our opponents. It seems to be all they have left.
Why would you pass up a chance to use such a damning quote? Because you can’t repeat a quote that was never real, that’s why.
3) Perhaps. However, the BNP are not simply nationalists. They are fascists.
This argument has been dealt with via an authoritative source (a scholar and author) here. What’s more, I will be repeating the exercise with two other works of authority in future. You really do discredit yourself, don’t you?
“If you can’t win an argument, make stuff up” part three.
“If you can’t win an argument, make stuff up” part four. Actually what the BNP want is fairness to the indigenous Brits and foreigners in Britain to abide and respect our laws and culture, just the same as Thais do in Thailand.
Agreed. Thanks for accepting we are right on that one.
Remember my article “Characteristics of the far left“? Notice its presence in SR’s comments. He supports censorship (point 2 in SCFL). He can’t resist slapping the ‘fascist’ tag around even though that has been completely rubbished (points 1 and 6) , and is desperate to use tags of any kind (point 1).
So thanks for the reply SR, but to be honest, I’ve had more mature and informed discussions with my seventh graders. Still, you did jog me to expand my far left characteristics to seven points (coming soon) and write a new article. So thank you. Do call again.
Remember people, don’t take my word for anything. Take the time to research and find the truth for yourselves. And for anyone else who wants to debate (come on, you can’t do any worse can you!?) remember we don’t have to do it here. We can do it at any agreeable site. See here. I’ve only been harsh with SR because of his aggression.
Far left watch 
December 28, 2007 at 6:00 pm
“You wager wrong. Al Queda should have their freedom to talk like anyone else under common law. Our common law prevents incitement or invitation to violence. So quotes such as this one from the late Zarqawi would be punishable by this law. (Yeh, it’s a pain when the other side actually uses evidence, huh?).”
That isn’t punishing the organisation. If you simply blame the individual they get sent down (as many BNP members have) and the BNP itself continues to organise violence.
“Anyone should be punished for violence. So since you claim we use violence, please go to your nearest police station and make a complaint. Oh by the way, the police function on this crazy system that actually requires evidence for claims.”
You can and many do, that is why the BNP has such a high level of people with criminal records. The problem is the BNP itself has never been punished for encouraging this activity.
“Ahhh British education, you can’t beat it can you? (Yes, SR is in England).”
Looking at your blog, you frequently use swear words and slang words. What is your point? Or are you, like most BNP supporters, a hypocrite?
“OK let’s make a deal. You show me one shred of adducible, verifiable proof that that statement is true and I’ll accept you win the whole argument. If you can’t (because it’s not true) you accept you lied. Deal?”
Nick Griffin’s own quotes for one.
“We haven’t given up on our principle that mono racial countries… mono ethnic countries are more stable, it’s far easier to preserve human rights and freedom within those whereas multi-racial societies always end up going right down the road of tyranny.”
So, he does want an all-white Britain….
“Why would you pass up a chance to use such a damning quote? Because you can’t repeat a quote that was never real, that’s why.”
Actually, another Griffin classic:-
In 1995 he wrote in the Rune, “the electors of Millwall did not back a post modernist rightist party but what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan ‘Defend Rights for Whites’ with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate.”
“This argument has been dealt with via an authoritative source (a scholar and author) here. What’s more, I will be repeating the exercise with two other works of authority in future. You really do discredit yourself, don’t you?”
Well, you have used the source against your own deluded view of the BNP. I could have written a similar blog with the same source with the exact opposite conclusion. The BNP are racists, they are holocaust deniers, they are violent. That makes it pretty easy to explain why they are fascists by those standards.
“If you can’t win an argument, make stuff up” part three.”
Again, Mr. Griffin allows be to verify my argument.
“Mass alien immigration and suicidally low birthrate mean that the White Race is poised on the brink of a precipice of rapid and irreversible decline. If we do not step back now, we face political and then physical extinction. A stark choice. UNITE OR DIE!”
I think its safe to say that is a racial assessment of society…
“If you can’t win an argument, make stuff up” part four. Actually what the BNP want is fairness to the indigenous Brits and foreigners in Britain to abide and respect our laws and culture, just the same as Thais do in Thailand.”
I think I have already proven I didn’t make this up.
“Remember my article “Characteristics of the far left“? Notice its presence in SR’s comments. He supports censorship (point 2 in SCFL). He can’t resist slapping the ‘fascist’ tag around even though that has been completely rubbished (points 1 and 6) , and is desperate to use tags of any kind (point 1).”
I say fascist because I mean it.
You clearly haven’t “completely rubbished” my arguments as mine are actually backed up by quotes (just like you requested).
“So thanks for the reply SR, but to be honest, I’ve had more mature and informed discussions with my seventh graders. Still, you did jog me to expand my far left characteristics to seven points (coming soon) and write a new article. So thank you. Do call again.”
Ah the insults start.
“Remember people, don’t take my word for anything. Take the time to research and find the truth for yourselves. And for anyone else who wants to debate (come on, you can’t do any worse can you!?) remember we don’t have to do it here. We can do it at any agreeable site. See here. I’ve only been harsh with SR because of his aggression.”
Erm, I think quotes from the leader of the BNP are pretty good evidence of my arguments. You however fail to justify any of your stereotypes of lefties, except by saying “look he’s calling the BNP fascists” despite that simply being a statement of fact.
December 28, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Well, we have a system that only punishes people for crimes that they have done. If there was evidence that the BNP itself organised violence, I’m sure they would be punished. “Continues” to organise violence? Surely Oxford Union would be an ideal opportunity? All BNP members were well behaved and restrained. Where did the violence come from?
So please show me a record of BNP members with records that came from a complaint by a member of the public. You simply continue to make things up.
Go back and read my blog again. I used “BS” once and that was it. Check for yourself. You simply can’t control your imagination can you? Stop discrediting yourself.
You just asked that question after you made a completely incorrect statement didn’t you?
Aha, so you’re getting your entire argument from that bastion of truth known as the BBC!
Acid test: would that stand up in courts of law as a claim for “an all white Britain”? You and I both know it wouldn’t. You were so insecure that you had to clarify yourself what you were trying to imply. Its an observation that any sociologist or historian might care to make if they believed it.
That was a quote twelve years ago, about the same time some Labour members were Communists. Right now the BNP web site states:
Well you could, but you’d be wrong on all three counts and by the way, holocaust denial has nothing to do with fascism. Fascism was around before the Holocaust.
Now read the article again, properly. And read my new one, too. Under no definition from any respected scholar are the BNP fascists. This is a core argument from the left which is totally without foundation. The fact they stick with it in that knowledge shows how desperate they are.
Hang on, your original argument was the BNP believe if you aren’t white you aren’t British. You pulled this quote from the same BBC page (stop being lazy and do some research!) which doesn’t even mention the words “British” or “nationality”! You then make the obvious statement “It’s a racial assessment of society”…did you lose track here or something?
I think we’ve proven you used one BBC web page, copied a load of stuff with hyperbole and lost the plot towards the end…….
Yes but you demonstratively don’t know what the word means, and therefore you don’t know what you’re saying, and as such I have proven you wrong.
Yes, you did a great job of cutting and pasting. The thing is, your quotes had little or no relevance, you simply pasted quotes and then drew wild conclusions from them. No impartial person would take Griffin’s quote on mono ethnic countries and human rights to mean: “The BNP want an all white Britain”. Nobody would take the “mass immigration and low birthrates” to mean “If you aren’t white, you aren’t British”. It wouldn’t happen.
Actually it was a truthful statement. But I admit it was pedantic.
I wasn’t talking to you, that’s why I said “people”. Feeling defensive are you?
I have no stereotype. When I got first involved in politics I knew nothing of UAF and their ilk. I discovered them by encounter, so everything I say is based on my experience and discovery, there was no stereotype, ever.
“look he’s calling the BNP fascists” despite that simply being a statement of fact.”
Please continue to say things that are demonstratively wrong. You defeat yourself.
January 22, 2008 at 10:54 pm
“Well, we have a system that only punishes people for crimes that they have done. If there was evidence that the BNP itself organised violence, I’m sure they would be punished. “Continues” to organise violence? Surely Oxford Union would be an ideal opportunity? All BNP members were well behaved and restrained. Where did the violence come from?”
Actually, groups such as Al queda are banned for the violence that they incite. Not all is determined by the individual. Oxford Union debate would have been exactly when the BNP don’t kick off. When the cameras are rolling and when they are outnumbered. No, the BNP attack people after demonstrations. Just like they did with me.
“So please show me a record of BNP members with records that came from a complaint by a member of the public. You simply continue to make things up.”
If you are so up-to-date with UAF’s propaganda you would know that shitloads of your councillors and activists have criminal records. If you were as extensive in your research as you make out you would have checked it out and would be telling me why I am wrong. Looks like you aren’t.
“Aha, so you’re getting your entire argument from that bastion of truth known as the BBC!”
Nope. I just thought where are some incriminating quotes. And then I remembered seeing some on there ages ago. If you want I could start quoting Mark Collett in more recent documentaries, but I suspect you would find that even more embarrassing.
“Acid test: would that stand up in courts of law as a claim for “an all white Britain”? ”
Combined with his comments on the Cook report, I’m pretty certain it would.
“That was a quote twelve years ago, about the same time some Labour members were Communists.”
Labour members (communist or not) have not recently been stockpiling weapons for an impending race war.
“by the way, holocaust denial has nothing to do with fascism. Fascism was around before the Holocaust.”
You don’t find it suspicious that people who share many of Hitler’s views would pretend that the holocaust never happened. I don’t know perhaps defending him…
“Now read the article again, properly. And read my new one, too. Under no definition from any respected scholar are the BNP fascists. This is a core argument from the left which is totally without foundation. The fact they stick with it in that knowledge shows how desperate they are.”
It wasn’t the definition I had particular problems with. It is that your article goes “well, they aren’t aggressive nationalists”, “they aren’t militaristic” which is just denying the nature of the BNP not using the definition to weigh an honest evaluation of the BNp up against.
“Hang on, your original argument was the BNP believe if you aren’t white you aren’t British. You pulled this quote from the same BBC page (stop being lazy and do some research!) which doesn’t even mention the words “British” or “nationality”! You then make the obvious statement “It’s a racial assessment of society”…did you lose track here or something?”
I apologise if you didn’t have the spark to join up the dots but BNP figures often talk of multiculturalism and immigration as threatening Britain. In the quote they talk about it threatening the white race. They use the two interchangably.
“I think we’ve proven you used one BBC web page, copied a load of stuff with hyperbole and lost the plot towards the end…….”
Oh, how witty your self deceit is….One source or not you claimed I made it up. Which by quoting the leader of the party I clearly haven’t.
“Yes, you did a great job of cutting and pasting. The thing is, your quotes had little or no relevance, you simply pasted quotes and then drew wild conclusions from them.”
That actually sounds like what you did with the definition of fascism.
“No impartial person would take Griffin’s quote on mono ethnic countries and human rights to mean: “The BNP want an all white Britain”.”
I think anyone with an ounce of a critical mind could take it as meaning that Griffin at least thinks things would be better if we were all of the same race. Combined with other comments about uniting the white race (which will never happen because too many people don’t find skin colour relevent) it doesn’t take a genious to join up the dots.
“I wasn’t talking to you, that’s why I said “people”. Feeling defensive are you?”
No but I think you have delusions of grandeur if you think you have a significant audience.
“I have no stereotype. When I got first involved in politics I knew nothing of UAF and their ilk. I discovered them by encounter, so everything I say is based on my experience and discovery, there was no stereotype, ever.”
You still don’t know anything of the UAF. What is more shocking is that you have fooled yourself about what the BNP are.
January 23, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Ben old boy! Good to see you back. This is getting tiresome and this is probably your weakest effort yet so I’ll be quick.
Yes exactly, Al Queda were banned under the Terrorist Act of 2006. BNP don’t do incitement to hate so they are not banned. It would no more sense to ban the BNP for a couple of bad apples than it would to ban UAF for the fact that your co founder was a convicted burglar and a Communist.
This is classic Ben. I’m going to use this in quote of the week. You are saying “BNP are fascist and violent and we are not, but the reason we acted violently that day and the BNP didn’t is because the BNP had less people and the cameras were rolling”. Fantastic!
I am sorry you were attacked. This is unlike your non-sympathy for a blogger facing jail , since you do not differentiate between right and wrong if you dislike someone’s politics (that strikes me as fascist, Ben). You cannot allow that to smear your personal views, as it clearly does because this is the third time you have mentioned it. I was attacked by a Tory voter once, I don’t hate all Tories because of it.
The onus is on you Ben. You are the one making the claim. The difference between us here – and people reading can see this – is that you make things up as you go along and short of a quick google search, you do no research. You have no citations, no statistics, just your own polemics.
You cannot prove a negative, Ben. Like I said, the onus is on you. You made the claim that people “can and do” make police complaints about the violence of people acting on behalf of the BNP. I challenged you to prove it and you have come back with this. It really doesn’t look good on you when your line of argument is this distorted, angry and tenuous.
We get it already, a few years ago a graphic design assistant in the BNP made some silly comments. Can you tell us that nobody from UAF has ever made silly comments?
What comments on the Cook report? Please quote verbatim. Why was Griffin found not guilty last time he was in court then?
Your best line yet. You talk in present simple as though a significant number of BNP members are doing something wacko like this. It’s nonsense and you know it. Show me some proof I’m wrong. If you offer more than one example, I’ll show you Labour , Tory and Lib Dem members with convictions too. Should we ban those groups?
What I find suspicious is your attempt to change the subject or use a straw man rather than accept you made an error due to lack of knowledge.
Than why do you claim the BNP are fascist when you know it’s a lie?
You made a bizarre and totally irrelevant citation as you had nothing better to adduce with. We all know that Ben. Petty insults can’t hide it.
See my previous response. By the way, did you notice you used sarcasm to mock someone’s wit? You really do walk into these things Ben! :-) Let’s stick to sensible debate shall we?
And yet here you are! I know my site stats, you don’t. I also see where you came from, what you click on and what page you exit to. I would not stoop so low as to reveal it to anyone though.
Again, the “I’ve lost, so I’ll use insults” line.
As mentioned before, our key difference is that you stick with polemics, insults – particularly reflective insults – and straw men. When you get something wrong like the” fascist = Holocaust denial” fallacy you change the question. People can read what we say on here and decide for themselves. All I can credit you for is that you keep trying.